Суд над Бхагавад-гитой / Attempt to ban Bhagavad-gita

Charles Darwin



Śyāmasundara: If we look back-say our written history goes back three thousand years—if we look back within that span, according to Darwin, our levels of consciousness are getting increasingly higher.


Prabhupāda: No. We say lower. We say lower. Degraded.


Karandhara: They're basing their quality on whether there's a better level of consciousness and what is more (indistinct) sense gratification.


Śyāmasundara: Technical advancements, scientific. Actually, morality...


Prabhupāda: ...is degrading.


Śyāmasundara: ...hasn't evolved. The ancient Greeks had a much higher standard of morality than the British or Darwin's time.


Prabhupāda: Yes.


Svarūpa Dāmodara: (indistinct) degrading (indistinct). We see every day, every moment.


Prabhupāda: So we have seen in our childhood, they're also. No voucher or receipt. I'll tell you one little story. My father was dealing in cloth. So supposing he has come, my customer, he wants so many things. So I haven't got stock all of these things, but I wrote down his order, that you are market broker, I say just get these things immediately from the market. You go to the particular person who has got the stock and you order him to my shop, "Such and such you send me." So you have ordered for say twenty, fifty men. So their men are coming with a load of cloth, and he'll simply ask the firm's name: "This is Rajaram (indistinct)?" And someone declares, "Yes, yes, yes." But no voucher. He simply asks whether this firm is Rajaram (indistinct), and somebody nods, "Yes, yes." So he drops the bundle of cloth. It may be five hundred, or thousand rupees' worth or more than that. So similarly, many porters drop, because I require so many things. Now, you are my broker, you come, you see the stack of cloth, you ask my clerk, "Just credit this from such and such firm." But firm has sent without any voucher, without any (indistinct), and the porter simply asks whether this is the same firm, and somebody nods and we (makes noise like stamping something), that's all. Then you come, you pick up so many bundles, "Just note down, 'This has come from such and such firm.' " You note down. Then my clerk notes it. This is transaction. And out of many such bundles, you find that you did not order this, "Wherefrom it came? It is not mine." So we set aside. Three days after, one (indistinct) comes, "Sir, on such and such date I dropped a bundle here which did not belong to you, so please give me this back." "Oh, you will see there are so many. What is yours you can take back." And he picks up, "Sir, this is my bundle," "All right, take it." He's unknown, but simply he comes and says that "I dropped one bundle here which does not belong to you. By mistake I dropped it," and I say, "Yes. So many bundles there are, you can take whatever is yours." This was the transaction. Then on the due payment day, those who supplied the cloths, they come to take payment and they say, "Sir, on such and such day, such and such cloth was supplied to you." No voucher, nothing. I open my book: "Yes, yes. That's all right." So he says that "This is the price and so much money is due payment." So he calculates, "Yes." So he pays the money and then, when taking money, he puts a stamp and he signs on the book. Now in the meantime, so many transactions we'll see, how much faithfully it was going on. So how much we have now became degraded: we supply something to somebody, we take three copies of voucher; one he takes, one we keep on book, one he gives (indistinct); then also he will try also, cheat, again. So much morally we have improved. I am speaking, say within, when I am child's age, now I am seventy-six. I may be fourteen, fifteen years old, like that. Fifty years ago these things were going on. Fifty or sixty. Sixty years ago the business dealings was so easy and plain.


Śyāmasundara: So to become increasingly complex—now we have computers and all—doesn't necessarily mean we are becoming more and more superior.


Prabhupāda: No. They are becoming more inferior. There is no necessity of computer machine.


Śyāmasundara: So even though there may be an evolution from simple to more complex, there's no evolution from inferior to superior.


Prabhupāda: That is not improvement. No. Now human society has become very complex. I don't trust you, you don't trust me. I keep my dog so that you may not come in my house—"Beware of Dogs"—and if you enter I can fire you, there is law. So what is this (indistinct)? Therefore we get from our śāstra that even you will receive your enemy at home, you will receive him so friendly way that he'll forget that you are his enemy. Gṛhaṁ satram api prāptaṁ visvastham akuto 'bhayam. He should feel himself so confidential that he's not near his enemy. His dealing and behavior are so nice. The morality is that "Whatever you may be, you have come to my house, you are my guest, so I must offer you all kinds of hospitality, never mind you are my enemy. Now you are my guest." So how much ethically improved the society was. "Yes. We are enemy, so when we fight we shall fight like enemies. But now we have come to my home, you are my guest, honorary guest, I must receive you with honor." That was being done Mahābhārata time.


Śyāmasundara: In the ancient times, the Neanderthal man, the Cro-Magnon man—they always are saying that these people were killers and hunters; they had to kill to survive.


Prabhupāda: That is Darwin's philosophy, not my philosophy.


Śyāmasundara: But there is no difference between the oldest cavemen and the men today. We're still killing, still hunting, still fighting. Same things.


Prabhupāda: No. Suppose just like Jesus Christ instructed his disciples, "Thou shall not kill." Say two thousand years ago in the Western countries, the men were killers, that's all. But we'll see Bhagavad-gītā, five thousand years ago, Kṛṣṇa is arguing that "If our women become widows then they'll be polluted. There will be varṇa-saṅkara, unwanted children, the society will go to hell." How much elevated society. Five thousand years ago. It is a question of place. It is a question of place. If Darwin says... Here in the Bible it is said that "Thou shall not kill," so that means two thousand years ago they were simply killers. That does not mean five thousand years there were no highly elevated personalities. That is his lack of studying. He is too much localized. He has no broadened knowledge, neither he has studied all the books, contemporary books; therefore he has poor fund of knowledge. He's very poor in his knowledge. Just like, still, there are many Americans... You Americans are completely different from others. You cannot say that all the Americans are drunkards and irresponsible; therefore, they are also. Side by side some moral is still there. You don't drink; you don't take meat; you are all God conscious; side by side there is. So how you can write history that "Such and such, 1971, '72, all Americans were LSD"? How you can conclude like that?


Śyāmasundara: They may find three or four bodies...


Prabhupāda: Even they may find one, they cannot conclude.


Śyāmasundara: Yes. Right. That's all. They can't tell from three or four samples what everything was like.


Prabhupāda: That's not possible.


Karandhara: Just like if five thousand years from now some archeologists came to Los Angeles, which is all covered over, who knows what they may dig up? They may dig up a monkey who lived in a zoo, they may dig up the mayor of Los Angeles, they may dig up anything. What will they conclude from their findings? That all of Los Angeles was made up of monkeys?


Prabhupāda: It is simply poor fund of knowledge. He is going to give us knowledge, but he is very, very poor in his knowledge.


Śyāmasundara: Actually, most of the men that they've dug up from ancient times were dumb hunters who died in some hunting accident anyway. They were a lower nature man. But I am still not clear about why they have never found out any remains of cities or ancient civilizations that were highly...


Prabhupāda: That is no reason. Suppose...


Karandhara: Actually they have. There are a number of archaeologists who have made findings like, particularly one, I can't remember his name, but he did an elaborate investigation on the Egyptian culture. And his thesis was that their culture was far more advanced than ours. They had mathematical techniques, they had...


Prabhupāda: Ajanta Caves. Ajanta Caves. Why that is? So artistic. He's unfortunate, he's simply excavated caves...


Śyāmasundara: I read about the paint in that cave. They don't know how it's still preserved. There's no chemical that they have today that will preserve paint so long.


Prabhupāda: So he's unfortunate. He could not find out Ajanta Cave; he found out some monkey's cave, that's all.


Karandhara: The Egyptians had geometric techniques that they're even..., they don't understand. They discount them...


Śyāmasundara: Prabhupāda said that they took that from the Indians, geometry.


Karandhara: But this one archaeologist wrote a book saying that this community in Egypt three thousand years ago was far superior, and no one accepted. No one believed him.


Śyāmasundara: Even in Mexico there are so many highly advanced...


Prabhupāda: Mexico is Indian civilization. They were showing to (indistinct). The Rāvaṇa had subway to Brazil. It can be seen from here where you can make subway...


Śyāmasundara: Yes, straight through.


Prabhupāda: Straight through. And therefore Rāvaṇa had so much gold; he took it from his brother's kingdom. Partly it was all one kingdom, and one part was being managed by his brother (indistinct) and one by himself. And in the Rāmāyaṇa it is said that Rāma-Lakṣmaṇa was taken to a subway to (indistinct) Rāvaṇa's place; that means Rāma and Lakṣmaṇa was taken to Brazil through subway. So now if you can make subways now—in Russia there is subway for five hundred miles—then why not five thousand miles? What is the difficulty? If it is possible to make subway up to five hundred, why not five thousand? It will require so many things.


Śyāmasundara: They say that the center of the earth is molten fire, fiery. It is liquid. Liquid fire.


Karandhara: (indistinct) insulated tube, insulated tube through the fire.


Prabhupāda: No. That portion may be avoided.


Śyāmasundara: Oh. Go around the crust.


Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore "I am going in subway, now here is the hard column, so I go this way." What is, what is that?


Śyāmasundara: If the worms can do it, why we can't?


Prabhupāda: Rats can do it. Snake can do it. Not snake. Snakes cannot. Rats can do. [break]


Svarūpa Dāmodara: ...the knowledge that we get from the so-called scientific theories of...


Prabhupāda: Poor fund of knowledge.


Svarūpa Dāmodara: ...consciousness, and the theory of...


Śyāmasundara: Are scientists beginning to understand that fact, or are they still...?


Svarūpa Dāmodara: They never think about that. That's why they are trying to find out so many things, because they think that when somebody tries to make something medicine or some compound, they try so many ways and means, and sometimes, when they are at a loss, they say, "O God, please give me (indistinct)." They do not know where it comes from, how this can be made. They try so many ways in making a compound. Sometimes they have to take a hundred or two hundred mistakes, and sometimes they will never get the compound. Ultimately when they are all disappointed, they say, "O God, please help me." So ordinarily the final conclusion is everybody (indistinct) supreme being.


Prabhupāda: And that is natural because, after all, God gives him his intelligence. It is stated in Bhagavad-gītā: mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanaṁ ca: [Bg. 15.15] "It is from Me." Apohanaṁ ca. He was forgetting. That was also..., God was not giving the chance, and he prays to God, then God is kind: "All right, do it like that." That is the statement in Bhagavad-gītā.


Svarūpa Dāmodara: But as soon as they get a compound, then they forget God.


Śyāmasundara: Darwin did that. He made the appearance and disappearance of animals' bodies seem so mechanically arranged that God was removed from the picture, and it appeared as if combinations of ingredients created animals and they evolved from each other.


Prabhupāda: That is another foolishness. Combination means God. He is combining. Combination does not take automatically. Suppose I am cooking. There are so many ingredients for cooking—they are not combined together. I am the cooker; I am cooking, first of all oil, and the spices, then the rice, then the dahl, then the water. In this way nice foodstuff is coming out. So this combination means God. Otherwise where is the instant the combination is taking place? I place all the ingredients in the kitchen room, and after one hour if I go, "Oh, where is my food?" (laughing) You nonsense, who is cooking your food? You starve. Just take help of a living being, then he'll cook and then you can eat. This is our experience. So why does he say combination? Wherefrom the combination comes? He is such a fool he does not know how combination takes place.


Śyāmasundara: There are several theories in that book of yours. Where is that book about the origin of life? There are several theories how everything began. They are quite interesting.


Prabhupāda: That is theory, but we see practically that material things, material elements, ingredients, they cannot be combined automatically. There must be a living entity who will combine them.


Śyāmasundara: One of the theories is that everything comes out of energy.


Prabhupāda: Energy means somebody's energy. I am sitting here, I am pushing one button, the energy is immediately created, and it goes. Just like this telex machine. So somebody is pushing the button.


Karandhara: The energetic.


Prabhupāda: And then energy, immediately produced. Computer machine, the machine is doing nothing out of his own accord. Somebody is going and pushing the button. Then it will..., the energy is created. Similarly, according to our Vedic knowledge, as soon as God wishes, immediately the energy is set off, set into action, and then other things come automatically.


Karandhara: In the trend of the scientists is that by their scientific research and their limited success which they enjoy, they are becoming more and more convinced that there is no God. They say everything is due to physical law.


Prabhupāda: No. That is the proof that they are saying there is no God, because as soon as God would withdraw the speaking power, he would not be able to speak—there is no power.


Śyāmasundara: This book is called The Creation of the Universe.


Prabhupāda: It is a scientific book?


Śyāmasundara: Oh, yes.


Svarūpa Dāmodara: It is written by a scientist from Colorado(?) University.


Prabhupāda: So he does not agree God created?


Śyāmasundara: Oh, no.


Prabhupāda: So there was a chunk.


Śyāmasundara: "The hierarchy of condensations." There are two theories: one is that everything was originally gas, and the other is that everything was originally turbulence or energy.


Prabhupāda: Originally gas. Now, so far we have got our experience, gas is produced from some liquid, is it not?


Śyāmasundara: They say that the liquid is produced from the gas.


Prabhupāda: That is also taught by us.


Svarūpa Dāmodara: (indistinct)


Prabhupāda: Yes. Anything, what was there in the beginning, that was matter.


Śyāmasundara: This says, "After the first complement of the atomic species had been formed during the first hour of expansion, nothing of particular interest happened for the next thirty million years." This is the... They have it all...


Prabhupāda: Where is the evidence that he is speaking the truth?


Śyāmasundara: The making of atoms.


Karandhara: They say that something came out of nothing, that originally there was nothing, at a point in history there was nothing, and at a point in history something began.


Śyāmasundara: Well, it says that there was a "frozen equilibrium and a spontaneous break-up of primordial nuclear fluid. The original state of matter is assumed to be a hot nuclear gas, ylen, y-l-e-n."


Prabhupāda: So first thing is that whatever he is speaking, what is the evidence for his word is to be accepted by us?


Karandhara: For most people it is just his word. Whatever his contemporary scientists conclude, he offers some insignificant evidence.


Prabhupāda: If words are to be accepted as true, why not accept the words of Kṛṣṇa? Who can be greater authority than Kṛṣṇa? If your word does not require any evidence, you are a renowned scientist, your words are sufficient, then greater scientist, greater personality is Kṛṣṇa. Then why should we not accept His words? We do not know what it is, but you are presenting there in bombastic words and we have to accept your word. Is it not? So I will say that instead of accepting your words, why not accept Kṛṣṇa's word? He's greater personality.


Karandhara: Someone will come along in a year or a few years and refute everything that this scientist says.


Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. That we say.


Śyāmasundara: There are three different theories, each one different. They all start with an original situation of like a chunk, a hot gas measured in billions of degrees of temperature, and out of that hot gas things condense.


Karandhara: That's not starting from the beginning...


Śyāmasundara: It was called a frozen equilibrium.


Karandhara: If there's an equilibrium, there has to be some principle, or energetic.


Svarūpa Dāmodara: I think the book is written just so that the (indistinct) looks like, funny things broken down. He himself says whether the universe is finite or infinite (indistinct) modern telescopic experiments can (indistinct) but beyond that he said maybe the universe is finite (indistinct) that is beyond our knowledge, beyond our capacity.


Śyāmasundara: This is a diagram of four different possibilities of what the universe looks like.


Prabhupāda: This is very nice-horse saddle.


Śyāmasundara:The round one?


Prabhupāda: No, no the next.


Śyāmasundara:This one?


Prabhupāda: This one.


Śyāmasundara: Yes, they call it a saddle.


Prabhupāda: It is convenient to ride over.


Śyāmasundara: Masters of the universe.


Karandhara: They could make a thousand different drawings.


Śyāmasundara: These are all based on mathematical principles. Because they have observed that the universe is expanding, so they are trying to figure out what shape it is expanding into.


Karandhara: That information is also in the Vedas: as Mahā-Viṣṇu breathes out, the universes expand, and as Mahā-Viṣṇu breathes in, the universes contract.


Śyāmasundara: It says, "It can be shown that a closed Einsteinian universe can expand only to a certain limit, beyond which the expansion will go over into contraction." So they also agree that the universe expands and contracts.


Prabhupāda: Expand means it was not in its present state. Original state was in seed.


Śyāmasundara: That seed they say was a hot gas.


Prabhupāda: So the seed is so powerful that it has become a universe. So who made that seed, wonderful seed? And wherefrom it came? What is the tree? What is the fruit? Wherefrom seed comes? So many questions are there.


Svarūpa Dāmodara: The so-called modern increased living taught by people who have the ideas of these things. The result is they are always led by people who think like that. Because like Śrīla Prabhupāda said on some of the letters, "The blind men leading the blind."


Prabhupāda: They accept blind men leading them.


Karandhara: They say the empiric mind just, you cannot accept revelation, that revelation isn't experimental to our limited knowledge, or to our knowledge. The hard-core scientist doesn't want to listen to revelation or what he considers theoretical spiritual knowledge, because he can't examine it or experiment with it himself; therefore he considers it a waste of time. If he can't see it or understand it with his mind, he doesn't think that it has any bearing or importance.


Prabhupāda: So scientific brain means ultimately becoming a fool. He'll talk all nonsense. Once he is recognized scientist, then he can talk all nonsense, and the people accept it as scientific truth.


Śyāmasundara: They say that our planet, along with all of the other stars and bodies in this universe, is about five billion years old. They have calculated in several ways. One of the ways they have calculated the age of our oceans to be five billion, and the age of our oldest rocks, along with the way that the stars are distributing themselves, that they must be five billion years old. [break] Could you repeat that, Śrīla Prabhupāda? I want to record it.


Prabhupāda: The Western philosophers and historians, in order to support Darwin's theory of anthropology, has never agreed to accept that the Vedic literatures written long, long years ago, but these less intelligent philosophers and theologists, their theory has been also dismantled by the discovery of this Ajanta Cave. From that cave it was very, very intelligent; as they are excavating other part, simply studying the bones. But there is other side also, this is also excavation; and it can be proved that very intelligent persons were there.


Śyāmasundara: I read about a column near Delhi that they found, made of some metal, that has been there for many, many thousands of years.


Prabhupāda: Many such things have been discovered, and besides that, they are searching after dead bones, and we are searching after living brains. So which should we consider better? Now this Vālmīki Rāmāyaṇa, it was written at least eight hundred, five thousands of years ago.


Śyāmasundara: Eight hundred times five thousand?


Prabhupāda: No. Eight hundred thousand and five thousand.


Śyāmasundara: 850,000 years.


Prabhupāda: Eight hundred thousands of years and five thousands of years.


Śyāmasundara: 805,000 years.


Prabhupāda: Yes. Long, long ago the Vedic knowledge was there. The Brahma-saṁhitā, it is to be understood, written by Brahmā millions and millions of years ago.


Śyāmasundara: In all of our Western history they never once referred to the Indian civilization.


Prabhupāda: Because they will be defeated. Because they will be defeated. They never recognize. That was British policy. Britishers wanted to... That is the cause of degradation of Indian culture. They manufactured such a... Even Dr. Radhakrishnan is a victim of that policy. They wanted to impress upon the Indians that before the arrival of the Britishers we were almost uncivilized: "We have made you civilized." And these rascal leaders, they accepted. That was their policy. Because they are very intelligent people. Lord Macauley (said): "If you keep them as they are, you will never be able to rule over them." And later on also, when Gandhi started that "Noncooperate with these rascals, they will go away. They are by force getting our cooperation and killing us." So noncooperate. Therefore he established the noncooperation movement. And Sir (indistinct), one of the greatest diplomats, statesmen of India, he said that "This is a very dangerous movement. Try to cut down this movement. Otherwise, if one percent of the Indian people noncooperate, it will not be possible for us to rule over this country." So in order to get our cooperation they are simply impressing that before the arrival of the Britishers, Indians were uncivilized. So many books they published. One American prostitute wrote Mother India.


Devotee: I saw that book


Prabhupāda: Yes, simply blaspheming Indian temples, culture, priest, like that. Gandhi remarked on that book, "Drain Inspector's Report." And he has simply picked up the bad side. Sometimes these priests in the temple, they make some bad behavior with woman; she has picked up this, not the better side.


Śyāmasundara: Practically, until now, no one except you has brought Indian culture out.


Prabhupāda: Yes.


Śyāmasundara: No one has known before that they had high culture.


Prabhupāda: No. Because regular propaganda. And all the swamis and yogis, they also rascals, they brought some yoga system, exercises, like that.


Śyāmasundara: No philosophy...


Prabhupāda: No philosophy, no culture. As we are touching now everything: sociology, politics, religion, culture, philosophy, everything, completely. Just like we are discussing now this Pṛthu Mahārāja's kingdom, how nice it is.


Śyāmasundara: Today when we were looking at the Sanskrit ślokas, I suddenly realized that this very strict form of śloka made it easy to memorize for the people.


Prabhupāda: Yes, oh yes.


Śyāmasundara: Therefore they were always...


Prabhupāda: Yes. That Sanskrit śloka is so made that if you repeatedly chant five, six times, it will be memorized. And once it is memorized, you will never forget it.


Śyāmasundara: Then you can pass it down and you don't have to write it.


Prabhupāda: No. That requires only memory. That was the system, śruti. Once hears from the spiritual master, it is memorized for good. The memory was so sharp, and the memory was prepared by this brahmācārya.


Śyāmasundara: And the grammatical rules are so arranged to make it easy to memorize-natural rhythm.


Prabhupāda: Natural, quite natural, natural rhythm. It's not artificial.


Śyāmasundara: Whereas our Western poems are all so many different lines, lengths, rhythms, you can't remember them.


Prabhupāda: There is no standard. There is Trayita Darpana(?), there is a book, you can... So many words, the first pronunciation five, second pronunciation seven, like that. There's different kinds of (indistinct), sandhi.


Śyāmasundara: So it's meant for hearing and memorizing.


Prabhupāda: Yes. You can sing also very nicely, sing also, like songs, with tamboura. It is very nice. (sings:) Cintāmaṇi-prakara-sadmasu kalpa, like that, it is very nice. In every temple there should be, one man should play on tamboura and chant. It requires nice pronunciation, and with the sound of tamboura it will be (indistinct). People are coming, offering darśana, and the singing is going on. That is the system in Indian temples. It immediately vibrates.


Śyāmasundara: Do you suppose that the British supported Darwin so that that would also help their political ambitions, by introducing...


Prabhupāda: Yes. These British wanted that all the big men born in their nation—all big scientists, all big philosophers, all big politicians—they are God's selected persons; therefore they must rule over the world. That was their program.


Śyāmasundara: And by putting out this book, The Origin of Species, they at once did away with God to be able to... After that Nietzsche, another philosopher who said, "God is dead," he made that statement first, right after Darwin's book came out: "God is dead."


Prabhupāda: So we have to fight against all these nonsense philosophers.


Śyāmasundara: That boy Svarūpa Dāmodara is going to move into the temple for a few days, and each day we will discuss a different scientific topic. Tomorrow genetics, and something else.


Prabhupāda: Yes. He is a scientist. He will talk technical words.


Śyāmasundara: He is going to bring all of his books. And I also studied science for many years, so if I refresh, and if all of the students become armed with these arguments, they can defeat any scientist.


Prabhupāda: Yes. Oh yes.


Śyāmasundara: Normally they are unable to answer scientists. It is difficult to answer scientists for some devotees, because they have such strong arguments.


Prabhupāda: This point should be stressed, that he is dealing with dead bones, and we are dealing with living brains.


Śyāmasundara: Just like Bhagavad-gītā is so perfectly written, so perfectly conceived.


Prabhupāda: Yes. And also there is Bhāgavata, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, everything, everything; every, Purāṇas.


Śyāmasundara: No barbarian could have ever conceived...


Prabhupāda: They have presented all these books as—what is called—allegory.


Śyāmasundara: Fiction, allegory.


Prabhupāda: Story. And the so-called swamis, they have also accepted like this. Therefore you can interpret in your own way. If it is a fact, how you can interpret it? But we are presenting as it is, fact. That is our business.


Śyāmasundara: They present so many newspapers every day and say this is fact, but it's lies, so many lies.


Prabhupāda: Even Dr. Radhakrishnan has said mental speculation is a big thing, of the Western propaganda.


Śyāmasundara: I think he said it is the crowning achievement of speculative thought.


Prabhupāda: He has said like that?


Śyāmasundara: "Bhagavad-gītā is the crowning achievement of speculative thought," as if some sages thought it up.


Prabhupāda: Now what is there? Finished. [break] ...fact. It is known to the Vedic culture millions of years ago. (indistinct) I was reading, aśitiṁ caturaś caiva, this is Brahmā-vaivarta Purāṇa and this Brahmā-vaivarta Purāṇa was written by Vyāsadeva five thousand years ago. And it was known long, long years ago. It was written in the Purāṇas, but it was coming by tradition long, long ago. So (indistinct). He has stolen this theory, this idea, from Brahmā-vaivarta Purāṇa, and he has tried to prove it in a different way. Otherwise this evolutionary theory is already there.


aśitiṁ caturaś caiva
lakṣāṁs tāñ jīva-jātiṣu
bhramadbhiḥ (puruṣaiḥ prāpyaṁ
mānuṣyaṁ janma-paryayāt)


Śyāmasundara: But Darwin doesn't have any conception of the jīva.


Prabhupāda: He's a nonsense. That's all.


Śyāmasundara: He sees only the bodies are changing.


Prabhupāda: Yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke, sa eva go-kharaḥ [SB 10.84.13]. Anyone, that is also mentioned there. Teṣām ātma vimanuna (indistinct). Foolish. Child. Child thinks "I am this body." (indistinct) means fools. Ātma vimanu: "I am this body." Animal thinks that "I am this body." Virakara (indistinct) ātmā vinanena anāśrita. They do not know what is my position. Misleading.


Śyāmasundara: There is a scientific subject which has become very popular now, called genetics, which has to do with the origins of life.


Prabhupāda: Well these so-called scientific theories are popular now and unpopular after few years. That's all. Again something popular. They are not science. Science cannot be popular now and unpopular after some days.


Śyāmasundara: But it's only because they have just discovered it.


Prabhupāda: Discovering, partial, that's like... They cannot discover. The things are there passing on, so many things, passing on.


Śyāmasundara: What it means in essence is that they have analyzed the individual cell of the living entity and they have found in each cell a set of genes, forty-six in each cell. These genes contain the blueprint for the whole body, like the seed of a tree contains the whole tree. So it is possible, they say, by rearranging these genes or changing them slightly that a new type of person can come out, or a new type of living entity, from the original.


Prabhupāda: Definitely. What we call the jīva, they might be talking of the jīva or genes. The genes, the jīva, they can have any nice type of body.


Atreya Ṛṣi: Can the scientists control that, the type of genes, the kinds of body, the child will get? The theory is...


Prabhupāda: Not theory... Just like we give dimension of the soul, so that statement is given by some man. Just like one ten-thousandth part of the tip of the hair, we get information from the Purāṇas. So this statement is also given by a man, but he is not ordinary. He is not ordinary. So any extraordinary man can give it.


Śyāmasundara: These genes are visible through a microscope, so they are not...


Prabhupāda: This is also visible. When I say that one ten-thousandth part of the hair, it is visible. Otherwise how I say? But it may not be visible to you. (indistinct)


Śyāmasundara: I mean these genes are not the same as the jīva in this case.


Prabhupāda: That is different thing. But jīva can be given any type of body. That is not difficult.


Śyāmasundara: So they say that each person is different from every other person because the arrangement of the genes in his cell is uniquely his, but the same genes will be passed on...


Prabhupāda: (indistinct) That depends on the father and the mother.


Śyāmasundara: The same genes will be passed on to their children, so they will have characteristics like their parents in that way.


Prabhupāda: That is the body—this body.


Śyāmasundara: So they are considering that by altering these genes in certain ways, they can make very highly intelligent persons come out or very low-bred persons come out.


Prabhupāda: But that is already there. What is their credit?


Atreya Ṛṣi: They want to control more.


Prabhupāda: What is the control? It is already there. It is not under your control.


Śyāmasundara: Their idea is that they can make xerox copies of whatever type of personality they like.


Prabhupāda: That's right; xerox copy means the original sample is already there. So what is the credit there?


Devotee: There may be only one very, very intelligent person, but by their method they may think that they may create a whole society.


Śyāmasundara: I'll read you some of their predictions. They're very frightening. They say by 1980—that's eight years from now—that they will be able to create synthetic life in the form of artificial viruses which will be used to cure some forms of genetic diseases. Artificial life. In eight years they say they will have artificial life.


Prabhupāda: And that artificial life?


Śyāmasundara: Small viruses or living organisms, very small. But by the year 2000 they say they will be able to keep...


Prabhupāda: 2000!


Śyāmasundara: Yes. That's twenty-eight years from now. They say that they will be able to deep-freeze embryos, that means unborn babies, as insurance against nuclear holocaust and for interplanetary colonization. In other words, they can send these unborn babies in frozen form to other planets and have an arrangement for them to be born and grow in the spaceship and then go out.


Prabhupāda: Don't waste your time with these rascals.


Śyāmasundara: They'll have an artificial and mechanical baby factory, effective control of most human defects. Single-celled life will be created from chemicals off the shelf. They can make intelligent animals to do menial work. And then in seventy-eight years they say that they will be able to regenerate...


Prabhupāda: Just like there was Pan American, they were selling tickets for going to Candraloka. Reservation.


Atreya Ṛṣi: Prabhupāda, is it possible that man could ever make even a one-celled living being?


Prabhupāda: Even if he makes, what is credit there? Cells are already there. What is the question of making?


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